<div dir="ltr">I have to agree with Heidi. I'm not sure what is informing your "definitive" tone. Indeed currently the "company" called consumers are paying for this service. So they are invested at this point. While the are many more stakeholders in healthcare then in electronics and paint, and indeed no one prescribes paint or cell phones, the stakeholder making the largest profit here is the manufacturer. As well, pharm sales continue to rise about 6% a year, in part because of the for profit system. In a closed system such as Kaiser, the corporation is actively working on reducing waste in terms of prescribing patterns and adherence patterns. In the free market system, the incentive to consume and dispose begins with the publicly traded pharmaceutical manufacturer (look at those numbers Fred). Sure the profits move down the line, but again, the biggest profit is up front and the smallest is sales at retail. Yep, creating incentives for improving compliance and reducing overprescribing is necessary, perhaps these would be better invested in a for profit system if the biggest money makers had a cradle-to-cradle design system. This ordinance is an attempt to create that structure. <br>
<br>Its actually easier then you and manufacturers are making it out to be. That's why when I check with three economists I get three different answers, so your point isn't clear. And your point about human nature--thank you for your sharing--It's helps us all in understanding what we are up against in our collective attempt to create an equitable system of ecological health. <br>
<br>I think Heidi's point was that to date, most on this list serve were in support of cradle-to-cradle solutions to ecological issues. Product stewardship is the current best practice, not the only solution. At least for me, I'm glad you are reminding me of the hubris of human nature that is never far off. <br>
<br>We'll keep working on it. <br><br>Joel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Fred Miller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:millerfl@tricity.wsu.edu" target="_blank">millerfl@tricity.wsu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Jennifer,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">In my second paragraph I was speaking not to product stewardship but rather law, politics, and human nature. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">You provided “Companies faced with managing their own waste invest in ways to reduce it” and I couldn’t agree more. Where we differ is what constitutes a “company” in this problem. I see the pool of prescribing professionals, dispensing outlets, and consumers as the “company” and fates of their wastes to be something THEY must invest in before anything else matters. Where’s their incentive to do better if they’re not paying for waste management in a tangible way? Hidden costs rarely influence behavior of such a “company” because it soon gets shuffled into the background as an unavoidable cost of doing business. When it’s turned into a cost center they must deal with, management (consumers, physicians, pharmacists) suddenly start paying attention because it’s something they can control directly. Don’t take my word for it. Ask any economist.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">As I said, mileage may vary.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
Servus<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Volkman, Jennifer (MPCA) [mailto:<a href="mailto:jennifer.volkman@state.mn.us" target="_blank">jennifer.volkman@state.mn.us</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:46 AM<br><b>To:</b> Heidi; Fred Miller; <a href="mailto:pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a></span></p><div><div><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pharmwaste] Pharma industry complaint against Alameda County<u></u><u></u></div>
</div><p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I think Fred's first paragraph is interesting and I'm curious to see how this plays out. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I don't have the energy to point out everything wrong with the second paragraph, but if you have no understanding of the concept of product stewardship, then the argument is lost anyway. Alameda was brave to stand up to big PhRMA. They did something that many other states and local units of government have been trying to do for several years. There is national legislation that I've heard is not likely to go anywhere, but it is there because people are tired of industry dumping on government and the taxpayers. We all know everybody pays for this, there is no away, be it through taxes or user fees. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Please consider the real benefits of a great product stewardship program, programs that are in place in other nations: the cradle to cradle system between manufacturers, retail and customer is maintained with no government "out". Companies faced with managing their own waste invest in ways to reduce it, to make products and components that are less toxic and which can be better recycled; they learn what doesn't work (over-prescription or wasting of certain less tolerable drugs), in this case, they develop better ways to deliver drugs/target a problem; they develop transport efficiencies. Those interested in less government should be interested in helping companies get their resources back to the point of manufacture for reuse. I've been in solid waste for 25+ years and government can no longer manage the waste burden. Private industry needs to step up and apply their fabulous brains and resources to this problem. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Nice way to step up PhRMA. They will spend more on this lawsuit than they would have spent on giving the program a try.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></span></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a> [<a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a>] on behalf of Heidi [<a href="mailto:Heidi@calpsc.org" target="_blank">Heidi@calpsc.org</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 10, 2012 6:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> Fred Miller; <a href="mailto:pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pharmwaste] Pharma industry complaint against Alameda County</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Fred – wow. Calling Supervisor Miley and the county supervisors pandering politicians is completely irresponsible and unprofessional. I’m sorry this type of post is allowed on this listserv.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>Heidi</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a> [<a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Fred Miller<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 10, 2012 1:24 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pharmwaste] Pharma industry complaint against Alameda County</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">After reading the filing I believe the plaintiffs will prevail on constitutional grounds. Some of their other claims are suspect but the challenge is based upon constitutional law where they stand on fairly firm and clear ground. To go back up the channel beyond the party who imports into a jurisdiction is clearly a violation of the ICC, and even that step is very likely to be slapped down. They can’t even give manufacturers/distributor the option of not doing business in the jurisdiction without violation of the ICC. Political subdivisions may tax activities which occur within their jurisdiction but they can’t reach beyond those geographical bounds. To implement such a program would require federal action to keep from running afoul of the ICC.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">I believe these programs should be a function of government. That allows a tax to be imposed upon retail sales within each jurisdiction which is clearly allowed. As this ordinance stands, Alameda County is trying to grab a free ride off the rest of the nation. Their pandering politicians lack the courage to tell people we all bear responsibility for what we consume.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Fred</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a> [<a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Scott Cassel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 09, 2012 4:08 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Pharmwaste] Pharma industry complaint against Alameda County</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Thanks to one of our members for the attached 11-page complaint filed in federal court by PhRMA, GPhA, and BIO against Alameda County's Safe Drug Disposal Ordinance. The lawsuit provides a concise summary of the law. It is also a broad rebuttal against the concept of producer responsibility, arguing that drug-take back programs should be a government function. </span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1f497d"> </span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">____________________________</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
<b>Scott Cassel</b></span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Chief<b> </b>Executive Officer/Founder<br><i>Product Stewardship Institute, Inc.</i><br>
29 Stanhope Street<br>Boston, MA 02116<br><a href="tel:617-236-4822" value="+16172364822" target="_blank">617-236-4822</a> (ph)<br><a href="tel:617-236-4766" value="+16172364766" target="_blank">617-236-4766</a> (fax) <br>
</span><span><a href="mailto:scott@productstewardship.us" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">scott@productstewardship.us</span></a><br><a href="http://www.productstewardship.us/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">www.productstewardship.us</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green" lang="EN-GB">P </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:#008040" lang="EN-GB">Please consider the environment before printing this email</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:gray">Click to follow us on </span></b><span style="color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/pages/Product-Stewardship-Institute/224328115936?ref=ts" target="_blank"><b><span style="color:#4f81bd">Facebook</span></b></a></span><b><span style="color:gray"> and </span></b><span style="color:#1f497d"><a href="http://twitter.com/productsteward" target="_blank"><b><span style="color:#4f81bd">Twitter</span></b></a> </span><b><span style="color:gray">and</span></b><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><b><span style="color:#4f81bd"><a href="http://productstewardshipinstitute.wordpress.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#4f81bd">Blog</span></a></span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br>---<br>
Note: As a courtesy to other listserv subscribers, please post messages to the listserv in plain text format to avoid the garbling of messages received by digest recipients.<br>
---<br>
TO SUBSCRIBE, go to: <a href="http://lists.dep.state.fl.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharmwaste" target="_blank">http://lists.dep.state.fl.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharmwaste</a><br>
TO UNSUBSCRIBE, DO NOT REPLY TO THE LISTSERV. Please send an e-mail to <a href="mailto:pharmwaste-unsubscribe@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste-unsubscribe@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a> -- the subject line and body of the e-mail should be blank.<br>
If you believe you may be subscribed with a different email address, please visit the subscriber listing at <a href="http://lists.dep.state.fl.us/cgi-bin/mailman/roster/pharmwaste" target="_blank">http://lists.dep.state.fl.us/cgi-bin/mailman/roster/pharmwaste</a><br>
FOR PROBLEMS: Contact List Administrator <a href="mailto:Laurie.Tenace@dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">Laurie.Tenace@dep.state.fl.us</a><br>
SEND MAIL to the list server at: <a href="mailto:pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:garamond,serif">Dr. Joel Kreisberg, DC, MA, CCH</span><br style="font-family:garamond,serif">
<span style="font-family:garamond,serif"><a style href="http://drkreisberg.com" target="_blank">drkreisberg.com</a><br><a style href="http://www.teleosis.org" target="_blank">teleosis.org</a></span><br style="font-family:garamond,serif">
<span style="font-family:garamond,serif"><a href="http://www.teleosis.org/" target="_blank"></a><a style href="http://foundation.metaintegral.org/centers/integral-health-medicine-center" target="_blank">foundation.metaintegral.org/centers/integral-health-medicine-center</a></span><br style="font-family:garamond,serif">
<span style="font-family:garamond,serif"><a href="mailto:drkreisberg@teleosis.org" target="_blank"></a><a style href="mailto:drkreisberg@teleosis.org" target="_blank">drkreisberg@teleosis.org</a></span><br style="font-family:garamond,serif">
<span style="font-family:garamond,serif"><a href="tel:510-558-7285%20Ext%20102" value="+15105587285" target="_blank">510-558-7285 Ext 102</a></span><br></div><br>
</div>