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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Joel,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I fully support and work with many stakeholder communities to foster cradle-to-grave stewardship.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Here’s what I’ve learned over the course of my employment in the environmental stewardship business<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>An unchallenged assumption is an unproven assumption. The intent of my original post was and is to stimulate critical thought regarding the methods and motives which drive effective hazard mitigation, and human health and environmental protection with respect to pharmaceutical materials manufacturing, distribution, and consumption. One thing I know about unchallenged assumptions is they cost money and sometimes things more precious than money. Where I see a specific weakness in the discussion to date is assumption manufacturer funded take back is the best way to attack the problem. My question to one and all is whether that theory has been tested or whether it’s just an assumption. If it’s been tested I withdraw my objections.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>When personal feelings and emotions are allowed to direct the conversation things usually go wrong. I freely admit, like everyone else, I occasionally allow my prejudices to steer me off course. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In my years in the industry I’ve had occasion to work with systems which funded waste management in various ways. Some choose to pass 100% of the cost to the consumer in the form of a direct charge per-unit of waste disposed. Some choose to “hide” the cost by operating a “free” collection system where the end user has no knowledge of or control over the costs of the program. Still others take a blended approach where end users pay at the point of purchase for waste management, and roll other related costs for environmental management/health protection into the “tax” levied at the point of sale.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>By far, the most effective systems I’ve ever encountered are those which use the blended approach. They invest in education (product selection/substitution, inventory control, waste minimization, pollution prevention, safety, etc.), inform the consumer of the costs and explain why those costs are what they are, and enlist the consumer as a member of the team. They have incentives built in to encourage waste minimization while still providing adequately for the needs of the consumer. What they don’t have are disincentives which encourage sloth and/or illicit dumping. They comport with the concepts of the ISO 14000 environmental management standards, best management practices, and sustainability.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Servus<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>Fred<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us [mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Joel Kreisberg<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 12, 2012 5:16 PM<br><b>To:</b> Fred Miller<br><b>Cc:</b> pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pharmwaste] Pharma industry complaint against Alameda County<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I have to agree with Heidi. I'm not sure what is informing your "definitive" tone. Indeed currently the "company" called consumers are paying for this service. So they are invested at this point. While the are many more stakeholders in healthcare then in electronics and paint, and indeed no one prescribes paint or cell phones, the stakeholder making the largest profit here is the manufacturer. As well, pharm sales continue to rise about 6% a year, in part because of the for profit system. In a closed system such as Kaiser, the corporation is actively working on reducing waste in terms of prescribing patterns and adherence patterns. In the free market system, the incentive to consume and dispose begins with the publicly traded pharmaceutical manufacturer (look at those numbers Fred). Sure the profits move down the line, but again, the biggest profit is up front and the smallest is sales at retail. Yep, creating incentives for improving compliance and reducing overprescribing is necessary, perhaps these would be better invested in a for profit system if the biggest money makers had a cradle-to-cradle design system. This ordinance is an attempt to create that structure. <br><br>Its actually easier then you and manufacturers are making it out to be. That's why when I check with three economists I get three different answers, so your point isn't clear. And your point about human nature--thank you for your sharing--It's helps us all in understanding what we are up against in our collective attempt to create an equitable system of ecological health. <br><br>I think Heidi's point was that to date, most on this list serve were in support of cradle-to-cradle solutions to ecological issues. Product stewardship is the current best practice, not the only solution. At least for me, I'm glad you are reminding me of the hubris of human nature that is never far off. <br><br>We'll keep working on it. <br><br>Joel<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Fred Miller <<a href="mailto:millerfl@tricity.wsu.edu" target="_blank">millerfl@tricity.wsu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'>Jennifer,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'>In my second paragraph I was speaking not to product stewardship but rather law, politics, and human nature. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'>You provided “Companies faced with managing their own waste invest in ways to reduce it” and I couldn’t agree more. Where we differ is what constitutes a “company” in this problem. I see the pool of prescribing professionals, dispensing outlets, and consumers as the “company” and fates of their wastes to be something THEY must invest in before anything else matters. Where’s their incentive to do better if they’re not paying for waste management in a tangible way? Hidden costs rarely influence behavior of such a “company” because it soon gets shuffled into the background as an unavoidable cost of doing business. When it’s turned into a cost center they must deal with, management (consumers, physicians, pharmacists) suddenly start paying attention because it’s something they can control directly. Don’t take my word for it. Ask any economist.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'>As I said, mileage may vary.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'><br>Servus</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Volkman, Jennifer (MPCA) [mailto:<a href="mailto:jennifer.volkman@state.mn.us" target="_blank">jennifer.volkman@state.mn.us</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:46 AM<br><b>To:</b> Heidi; Fred Miller; <a href="mailto:pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pharmwaste] Pharma industry complaint against Alameda County<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I think Fred's first paragraph is interesting and I'm curious to see how this plays out. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I don't have the energy to point out everything wrong with the second paragraph, but if you have no understanding of the concept of product stewardship, then the argument is lost anyway. Alameda was brave to stand up to big PhRMA. They did something that many other states and local units of government have been trying to do for several years. There is national legislation that I've heard is not likely to go anywhere, but it is there because people are tired of industry dumping on government and the taxpayers. We all know everybody pays for this, there is no away, be it through taxes or user fees. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Please consider the real benefits of a great product stewardship program, programs that are in place in other nations: the cradle to cradle system between manufacturers, retail and customer is maintained with no government "out". Companies faced with managing their own waste invest in ways to reduce it, to make products and components that are less toxic and which can be better recycled; they learn what doesn't work (over-prescription or wasting of certain less tolerable drugs), in this case, they develop better ways to deliver drugs/target a problem; they develop transport efficiencies. Those interested in less government should be interested in helping companies get their resources back to the point of manufacture for reuse. I've been in solid waste for 25+ years and government can no longer manage the waste burden. Private industry needs to step up and apply their fabulous brains and resources to this problem. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Nice way to step up PhRMA. They will spend more on this lawsuit than they would have spent on giving the program a try.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a> [<a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a>] on behalf of Heidi [<a href="mailto:Heidi@calpsc.org" target="_blank">Heidi@calpsc.org</a>]<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 10, 2012 6:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> Fred Miller; <a href="mailto:pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pharmwaste] Pharma industry complaint against Alameda County</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'>Fred – wow. Calling Supervisor Miley and the county supervisors pandering politicians is completely irresponsible and unprofessional. I’m sorry this type of post is allowed on this listserv.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'><br>Heidi</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a> [<a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Fred Miller<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 10, 2012 1:24 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Pharmwaste] Pharma industry complaint against Alameda County</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'>After reading the filing I believe the plaintiffs will prevail on constitutional grounds. Some of their other claims are suspect but the challenge is based upon constitutional law where they stand on fairly firm and clear ground. To go back up the channel beyond the party who imports into a jurisdiction is clearly a violation of the ICC, and even that step is very likely to be slapped down. They can’t even give manufacturers/distributor the option of not doing business in the jurisdiction without violation of the ICC. Political subdivisions may tax activities which occur within their jurisdiction but they can’t reach beyond those geographical bounds. To implement such a program would require federal action to keep from running afoul of the ICC.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'>I believe these programs should be a function of government. That allows a tax to be imposed upon retail sales within each jurisdiction which is clearly allowed. As this ordinance stands, Alameda County is trying to grab a free ride off the rest of the nation. Their pandering politicians lack the courage to tell people we all bear responsibility for what we consume.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'>Fred</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a> [<a href="mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">mailto:pharmwaste-bounces@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Scott Cassel<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 09, 2012 4:08 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Pharmwaste] Pharma industry complaint against Alameda County</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thanks to one of our members for the attached 11-page complaint filed in federal court by PhRMA, GPhA, and BIO against Alameda County's Safe Drug Disposal Ordinance. The lawsuit provides a concise summary of the law. It is also a broad rebuttal against the concept of producer responsibility, arguing that drug-take back programs should be a government function. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>____________________________</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><b>Scott Cassel</b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Chief<b> </b>Executive Officer/Founder<br><i>Product Stewardship Institute, Inc.</i><br>29 Stanhope Street<br>Boston, MA 02116<br><a href="tel:617-236-4822" target="_blank">617-236-4822</a> (ph)<br><a href="tel:617-236-4766" target="_blank">617-236-4766</a> (fax) <br></span><a href="mailto:scott@productstewardship.us" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>scott@productstewardship.us</span></a><br><a href="http://www.productstewardship.us/" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>www.productstewardship.us</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:#008040'>Please consider the environment before printing this email</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:gray'>Click to follow us on </span></b><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.facebook.com/pages/Product-Stewardship-Institute/224328115936?ref=ts" target="_blank"><b><span style='color:#4F81BD'>Facebook</span></b></a></span><b><span style='color:gray'> and </span></b><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="http://twitter.com/productsteward" target="_blank"><b><span style='color:#4F81BD'>Twitter</span></b></a> </span><b><span style='color:gray'>and</span></b><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><b><span style='color:#4F81BD'><a href="http://productstewardshipinstitute.wordpress.com/" target="_blank"><span style='color:#4F81BD'>Blog</span></a></span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>---<br>Note: As a courtesy to other listserv subscribers, please post messages to the listserv in plain text format to avoid the garbling of messages received by digest recipients.<br>---<br>TO SUBSCRIBE, go to: <a href="http://lists.dep.state.fl.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharmwaste" target="_blank">http://lists.dep.state.fl.us/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharmwaste</a><br>TO UNSUBSCRIBE, DO NOT REPLY TO THE LISTSERV. Please send an e-mail to <a href="mailto:pharmwaste-unsubscribe@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste-unsubscribe@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a> -- the subject line and body of the e-mail should be blank.<br>If you believe you may be subscribed with a different email address, please visit the subscriber listing at <a href="http://lists.dep.state.fl.us/cgi-bin/mailman/roster/pharmwaste" target="_blank">http://lists.dep.state.fl.us/cgi-bin/mailman/roster/pharmwaste</a><br>FOR PROBLEMS: Contact List Administrator <a href="mailto:Laurie.Tenace@dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">Laurie.Tenace@dep.state.fl.us</a><br>SEND MAIL to the list server at: <a href="mailto:pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us" target="_blank">pharmwaste@lists.dep.state.fl.us</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br clear=all><br>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Dr. Joel Kreisberg, DC, MA, CCH<br><a href="http://drkreisberg.com" target="_blank">drkreisberg.com</a><br><a href="http://www.teleosis.org" target="_blank">teleosis.org</a><br><a href="http://foundation.metaintegral.org/centers/integral-health-medicine-center" target="_blank">foundation.metaintegral.org/centers/integral-health-medicine-center</a><br><a href="mailto:drkreisberg@teleosis.org" target="_blank">drkreisberg@teleosis.org</a><br><a href="tel:510-558-7285%20Ext%20102" target="_blank">510-558-7285 Ext 102</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>