shrug-l: surveying

Mon Jul 23 11:46:13 EDT 2007

Bret,
While the worlds of GIS and Surveyors overlap in many places, they serve
to different purposes. I have worked in both worlds so have a good
understanding of these issues.

Surveyors are normally only worried about a single project and how the
parts of that project relate to itself. If this is a property survey,
then they are concerned with determining location of that parcels
boundary lines and how those relate to the adjacent parcels. They do not
care how that fits with the rest of the world. We in GIS are more
concerned with how the big picture fits together. While we do want our
data to be as accurate as possible in many cases if something is off by
a few feet then it is not as big a deal as it is for a surveyor
determining property ownership. So as a result, Surveyors and GIS folks
have different views of what data is needed, how it should be used and
how it should be collected. 

You add to that the fact that most folks do not understand what a
Surveyor really does and as a result are not willing to pay what it
would really cost to perform a full survey. I have heard clients say
"All you do is stand on the side of the road and take pictures" when
talking about getting a survey done. They have no idea the amount of
research, field work and office calculations goes into doing a complete
boundary survey. As a result Surveyors are forced to do the bare minimum
work needed to complete a boundary survey or they go out of business. In
Georgia you are not required to tie a survey to state plane or other
coordinate system unless you are within 500 feet of a NGS monument. Now
many local governments have developed stricter requirements that force
new surveys and developments to be tied to State Plane coordinates but
that is not the norm at least not here in Georgia. 

As to your specific problem, I would use a combination of aerial
identifiable points and other map features to georeference the drawing.
Will you get a perfect fit? No but it should be close. Remember GIS is
not used to determine ownership. That is the job of a Professional
Surveyor. There is a reason GIS grade GPS such as the GEO XT is only
accurate to the submeter level and that survey grade is accurate to the
sub-centimeter level. 

Tripp Corbin, MCP, CFM, GISP

Associate Vice President, GIS/Mapping

ESRI Authorized Instructor

Keck & Wood, Inc.

 <http://www.keckwood.com/> www.keckwood.com

(678) 417-4013

(678) 417-8785 fax

Keck & Wood, Inc offers instructor led and virtual training for ESRI's
ArcGIS & ArcView software.
Please visit  <http://www.keckwood.com/> www.keckwood.com for more
information including a schedule of upcoming classes. 

-----Original Message-----
From: shrug-l-bounces at lists.dep.state.fl.us
[mailto:shrug-l-bounces at lists.dep.state.fl.us] On Behalf Of Bret
Whiteley
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 11:19 AM
To: shrug-l at lists.dep.state.fl.us
Subject: RE: shrug-l: surveying

SHRUGGERS,

Okay so my work this morning fits in nicely with recent discussions.  

I have a boundary survey for a parcel in a rural area of North East
Florida - Sorry not in the Seven Hills!!  The Boundary Survey is in CAD,
and of course has no projection.  I need to scale and rotate it into the
correct location.  I am familiar with both the spatial adjust and CAD
transformation toolbars in GIS, and would usually use one of these
techniques to drop the CAD in the correct location.  However, what do I
use as the reference base to align or adjust my CAD boundary to?  The
Aerial has limited distinguishing features; the Tax Parcel Data is
terrible and our field crew located what they believe was the property
corners on a trip with a GeoXT GPS unit.  The property corners we
located wrong, if I use them as reference the property does not align
with the limited distinguishing features on the aerial.  Any clues as to
how to fix this now?

The above problem is one aspect of the CAD/survey world I personally do
not understand.  It seems like GIS specialists are really good at
transforming data between different software platforms and file types
including a slough of different project systems depending on the intent,
scale and location of the data.  In most cases when working with a CAD
or survey person we have to spend time transferring data from GIS to a
platform that they can use, or converting what they give us to something
we can use.  I would think that with the demanded accuracy of the
Surveyors, they would be required to provide a boundary survey with a
projection defined.  The alternative, an unprojected boundary, allows me
a GIS prof. to assign what I believe are the property boundaries and
spatially adjust their 1 part per 1 000,000 survey to my interpretation
of a reference point in an existing dataset or aerial???  Logical and
accurate - NO - hopefully I am doing something wrong in my methodology
of assigning a real-world location to boundary survey, otherwise whats
the point of worrying about an expensive boundary survey?  Last comment
was facetious, I understand the need - but surely the analysis that
follows the boundary survey in GIS needs to be as accurate as possible.

Bret.

  _____  

From: shrug-l-bounces at lists.dep.state.fl.us
[mailto:shrug-l-bounces at lists.dep.state.fl.us] On Behalf Of Tripp Corbin
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 10:14 AM
To: Tim Spivey; shrug-l at lists.dep.state.fl.us
Subject: RE: shrug-l: surveying

Tim,

You are right Georgia is a bit unique when it comes to land systems. We
currently have two different land systems in the state. The Headright
system in the eastern 1/3 of Ga and the Land Lottery system in the the
remainder. I just gave a presentation on Georgia Land History at the
GAAO convention. It was something my Dad and I put together. It is
amazing how many folks mapping or surveying parcels do not know how the
original parcels were created. 

I have been attending the SHRUG conference for the last several years.
During that time I have run into folks from all over including south
Georgia, Alabama, the US Virgin Islands, central, eastern, and southern
Florida in addition to those in the pan handle. I would strongly
encourage you to attend. The SHRUG conference is truly one of the best
out there. It is well run with a lot of good presentations and reduced
cost training classes. I look forward to it every year. 

Tripp Corbin, MCP, CFM, GISP

Associate Vice President, GIS/Mapping

ESRI Authorized Instructor

Keck & Wood, Inc.

 <http://www.keckwood.com/> www.keckwood.com

(678) 417-4013

(678) 417-8785 fax

Keck & Wood, Inc offers instructor led and virtual training for ESRI's
ArcGIS & ArcView software.
Please visit www.keckwood.com <http://www.keckwood.com/>  for more
information including a schedule of upcoming classes. 

-----Original Message-----
From: shrug-l-bounces at lists.dep.state.fl.us
[mailto:shrug-l-bounces at lists.dep.state.fl.us] On Behalf Of Tim Spivey
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 9:56 AM
To: shrug-l at lists.dep.state.fl.us
Subject: shrug-l: surveying

Though we in south Georgia use metes & bounds and the peculiar problems
associated with that system, perhaps this web site will shed some light
on how surveyors work in the real world -

www.samsog.org

There have been some lively GIS/surveyor discussions on their message
board, which have helped me immeasurably, and we have some small dialog
between the GIS and surveyor worlds.

And a question - would a south Georgia GIS grunt be welcome at SHRUG
conferences?

Tim Spivey

Tift County GA

  _____  

From: shrug-l-bounces at lists.dep.state.fl.us
[mailto:shrug-l-bounces at lists.dep.state.fl.us] On Behalf Of Sykes, John
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 9:32 AM
To: Wolfe, Heather; Mayo, Michele L.; shrug-L at lists.dep.state.fl.us
Subject: RE: shrug-l: Heads Up

Within the past year, I have attended the ESRI San Diego conference, the
SERUG conference and, of course, the last two SHRUG conferences.  Of the
three, the SHRUG meeting has consistently been the best.  I think the
mix of Florida; State, County and Local ArcGIS users creates the best
environment for the exchange of useful information.

Don't get me started on surveyors, I've gone through four companies
before getting the workproduct I needed on one site alone (50 - 160+ ft
errors should not occur in a sealed survey).  You've probably seen my
latest postings here about a survey problem, but I have to balance that
with "map-accuracy", widely used GIS layers that I know are off by 50 -
100 ft or more as well.  Part of the problem is that neither
"map-accuracy" nor 1 part in 10,000 "survey accuracy" are acceptable in
today's precision GIS environment (1 part in 1,000,000 is more like
it!).

Anyway, my recommendation is not to mess with the SHRUG conference, it
is one of the best around and the price is right.  It will likely be the
only meeting I will get to attend this fiscal year because of the
State's travel & conference cut-backs.

-- John 

  _____  

From: shrug-l-bounces at lists.dep.state.fl.us
[mailto:shrug-l-bounces at lists.dep.state.fl.us] On Behalf Of Wolfe,
Heather
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 8:55 AM
To: Mayo, Michele L.; shrug-L at lists.dep.state.fl.us
Subject: RE: shrug-l: Heads Up

I'm not in the Seven Hills area, but wanted to submit a thought to the
rest of you. I have always thought that one of the  major sources of
disagreement between surveyors and GIS professionals is that they did
not understand each other's roles. My personal opinion (I am sure some
of you feel differently) is that if I can trust a surveyor to collect
field data for me, if he can do it more accurately than me, and if it is
not prohibitively priced for my organization, let him (or her) go to it!
My job is not threatened by this as the majority of what I do is
analyzing data that has already been collected. I fly a desk, not a
Trimble. Neither does my existence as a GIS professional not under the
direct supervision of a surveyor threaten the surveyor's job. Many times
I have questioned about the validity of putting a GPS in the hands of a
field tech instead of a surveyor simply because it's cheaper. Most of
the non-surveyor GPS work that I have seen in different organizations
has been done that way- by field techs, not by expensive GIS
professionals.

The second observation is that many GIS professionals I know don't
attend FLURISA because it's "mostly for surveyors" (quote from another
GIS professional I know). Most of us have to choose which conference to
go to. Which should we spend our education allotment on- SHRUG, SERUG,
FLURISA or the San Diego ESRI conference? Usually both SHRUG and FLURISA
lose this contest.  This is a shame because there seems to be a widening
breach between GIS professionals and surveyors, two groups who could
cause incredible change to our world for the better if only we can get
along.  

In view of that, I think that it would be very beneficial for the two
groups to have a joint conference. More dialogue usually equals more
understanding and eventually cooperation.  This seems like a great
opportunity to help along the relationship between our two groups. Will
it make SHRUG bigger? Maybe. Is that bad? Sometimes. But there are many
issues in Florida where the participation of more people would be
beneficial to all (standardized shapefiles, to name just one).  I think
that in this situation the greater good outweighs the lesser evil. 

Thanks for listening to my soapbox speech!

Heather Wolfe
Sr. GIS Analyst, Planning & Development
Seminole County Government
1101 E. First St.
Sanford, FL 32771

Office 407-665-7378
Fax 407-665-7412
HWolfe at seminolecountyfl.gov
www.seminolecountyfl.gov

  _____  

From: Mayo, Michele L. [mailto:Michele.Mayo at dep.state.fl.us] 
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 5:09 PM
To: shrug-L at lists.dep.state.fl.us
Subject: shrug-l: Heads Up

Hello List,

A proposal was introduced in Thursday's SHRUG quarterly meeting to
investigate a merger of our annual conference with that of FLURISA,
known as the Joint Mapping Conference.

Lee Hartsfield, current SHRUG president, announced that he had recently
been elected president of FLURISA.  Lee now serves as president for both
organizations.  After giving a very general outline of his proposal to
discuss combining the two conferences, Lee asked the small gathering to
vote for or against further discussions with FLURISA, saying that,
according to SHRUG by-laws, there were enough people present to take a
vote on the matter.  Although several of us expressed reservations, Lee
did take a vote and his motion was carried.

This is not a trivial decision.  In my opinion, any proposal that could
fundamentally change the character of our organization should be put to
the SHRUG membership at large before any negotiations are conducted with
outside parties.  The grass-roots character of SHRUG has kept our
organization strong, solvent, vibrant and valuable for eight years.  We
could lose that if we fail to keep the membership informed and involved
in plotting our future course.

If this proposed action concerns you, please let your SHRUG officers
know.  Their contact information can be found here:

http://www.shrug-gis.info/shrug_business.htm

Michele Mayo, GISP

Florida DEP, Beaches and Coastal Systems

Coastal Data Acquisition Section

3900 Commonwealth Blvd. MS 300

Tallahassee, FL 32399-3000

850.413.7776

 <mailto:michele.mayo at dep.state.fl.us> michele.mayo at dep.state.fl.us

 <http://www.floridadep.org/beaches/programs/cda.htm>
www.floridadep.org/beaches/programs/cda.htm

-****Florida has a very broad Public Records Law. Virtually all written
communications to or from State and Local Officials and employees are
public records available to the public and media upon request. Seminole
County policy does not differentiate between personal and business
emails. E-mail sent on the County system will be considered public and
will only be withheld from disclosure if deemed confidential pursuant to
State Law.****-

-****Florida has a very broad Public Records Law. Virtually all written
communications to or from State and Local Officials and employees are
public records available to the public and media upon request. Seminole
County policy does not differentiate between personal and business
emails. E-mail sent on the County system will be considered public and
will only be withheld from disclosure if deemed confidential pursuant to
State Law.****-

  _____  

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